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Post by Grecian on May 26, 2015 20:07:34 GMT 2
At the moment in England and Wales, the Suicide Act 1961 makes it an offence to encourage or assist a suicide or a suicide attempt although the Courts have been, rightly, lenient in their interpretation of that Act when it has happened.
Jeffrey Spector from England travelled to Switzerland last week with his family and attended the Swiss Clinic Dignitas with the sole intention of killing himself even though he doesn't have a life threatening prognosis. He killed himself.
Is that right?
I have my own thoughts but would like to hear yours on this matter in general.
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Post by outside cat @wino on May 27, 2015 2:45:02 GMT 2
(1)Medical related and professional opinion is you have no chance of recovery and your life quality will be rubbish then yes. Think MS as a disease.
(2)Because I have had enough of the world then no it is not what the Swiss system was set up for, grab some pills and a bottle of scotch.
Good question though!
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Post by nifty50 on May 27, 2015 16:13:18 GMT 2
The OP is a low Class Lo55er
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Post by Grecian on May 27, 2015 20:35:57 GMT 2
Good one Wino and glad to see you already racking up 4 Posts, Lincs!
I can't see this one being a 'Sticky' and need for extra Bandwidth...
Before this recent high profile one then everything seemed to be fine.
All about the Individual's Choice and Quality of Life - I'd certainly go if I was in pain everyday; had a terminal illness and was paralysed and needed constant care. the same for advanced cases of Dementia (But then can you make a valid decision to end your Life?..)
In this case the bloke had a tumour that probably would have paralysed him quickly. And that's it. Heavy but liveable with? You can still read, watch films/football, Travel and adore birds, flowers, trees etc etc.
Basically, he wasn't dying or in pain.
Isn't he a very bad 'Advert' for Disabled people - Like they should consider it as well?..
I think it's a bit mean on his Family for him to make that decision....
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Post by outside cat @wino on May 28, 2015 2:08:16 GMT 2
I was just thinking it would open up an entire knew family conversation wouldn't it. If you were the person making that choice how would you include family in the process. I think my crew would support me but would be fairly angry if I took my own life.
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Post by quixote on May 28, 2015 2:57:37 GMT 2
It's a "sticky wicket" of a topic to be sure and one which there are very strong feelings and convictions both pro and con. Having personal experiences of loved ones who took their own lives, and also professionally when I worked in the mental health field (I have 3 suicide notes that were left for me and, ironically. I just found them in my hoard of "things" I keep just the other evening). All were under different circumstances, some predictable to a certain degree, others, not quite so.
Personally, I would want for someone who understood, to know that it would be my wish to go peacefully were I to loose all my faculties and/or was just lingering and being kept alive in a vegetative state or in pain.
I know that my mother who died 5 years ago in a kind and peaceful way, because of her religious beliefs, did not have a living will, or DNR. So, all attempts were made to revive her despite discussions we had together but, she knew, and I knew, but she could not tell anyone else, nor could I. It was very difficult for me because I knew all this but could not tell my brother who was hoping they could keep her alive.
It is so deeply personal a question of beliefs. I do not think it can be freely agreed upon one way or the other.
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Post by Grecian on May 28, 2015 20:06:22 GMT 2
Makes you wonder, Wino, what with all those sickly sweet photos in the paper of all the Family around him and all dressed in white? All of those people are individuals and have feelings and I would say that all have different feelings about their dad's choice and a couple of them would be thinking "What a Selfish Bastard" now.
Suicide, quixote, is different and there is a myriad of reasons why someone decides to make the ultimate call there. This is about Assisted Suicide.
This Bloke would have had all faculties apart from movement below the neck if the worst came to the worst. To me that's just being a tad too Selfish?
Can you expand on why any Religious Beliefs would make your Mother's decision go one way or the other? I really cannot think.
Very Personal but why couldn't your Brother be part of the conversations?
Looking back and with hindsight, my Mother dying was not the best and it would have been far more Humane to go down the Assisted Suicide Route and she would agree.
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Post by outside cat @wino on May 28, 2015 23:48:33 GMT 2
I think if it was terminal for me then yes I would have that conversation with them. I probably investigated 20-30 suicides over the years and some were explainable from an outsider looking in but the vast majority were the fudge nose?
Fortunately the Drs will abide by request for NFR (not for resuscitation) and I must do some work on enduring powers for medical treatment and estate management.
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Post by Grecian on May 29, 2015 20:54:09 GMT 2
Terminal Illness then all is fine as it should be the individual's choice.
Were you a Copper/Policeman? Suicides are normally understandable with Hindsight. Very few, if any, suddenly decide to end their Life for no apparent reason.
Your last sentence is slightly worrying?
I hope you are fit and healthy now and just playing with my thoughts?
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Post by outside cat @wino on May 29, 2015 23:29:56 GMT 2
Yes re occupation, the EPOT are good once you hit a certain age and you have more life behind you than in front of you. Likewise if you travel to shitter countries, I am not sure if UK uses them or not but I like the fact that my wishes will be agreed to in relation to pulling the plug if I am seriously injured in some way. I have seen people being kept alive in a vegative state (is vegative a word) and it isn't pretty
I am fit and healthy at the time of typing!
The no apparent reason observation is interesting. Quite a few that I investigated I(we) couldn't come up with a reason. It was usually the young and they seemed to tick all the boxes in terms of health/family support/school/friends but something made them decide to end it all. From a family perspective that is probably the hardest of all, no know reason.
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Post by Grecian on May 30, 2015 20:35:53 GMT 2
Policeman! What a cracking guess that was.
EPOT? Estimated Point of Death?
You are an Australian, aren't you? I assume you have the same as us where Assisted Suicides are against the Law but the Courts, quite rightly, give a massive leeway in their interpretation of the Law. You have to be careful where Money is involved with Wills etc.
NAR is more interesting as I am sure that Friends/Teachers/Parents etc would have noticed a certain trait and, with he Hindsight, could piece it together and work out where the Trigger Points occurred and also what made them finally fall over that Mental Cliff and decide to End it?
Obviously there are loads of attempted suicides that are just crys for Help.
I wish you well, Wino and it's strange that a Thread like this should make me realise that you're not a bad lad, after all!
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Post by outside cat @wino on May 31, 2015 14:52:21 GMT 2
bad spelling on EPOT is should have been Enduring Power of Attorney so EPOA.......all these acronyms is like going to war with the Americans.
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Post by Grecian on May 31, 2015 20:17:12 GMT 2
LOL!
ANZACs and all....
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Post by outside cat @wino on Jun 1, 2015 2:19:32 GMT 2
The Swiss have assisted law as it was a direct vote from the people? It will never happen here as the politicians will adopt the moral unrepresentative high ground.
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Post by Grecian on Jun 1, 2015 19:57:04 GMT 2
I disagree to a certain extent.
At the moment, both the UK and Australia are very Conservative; hence they will both not change the Law as it stands.
If even a slightly Left Wing Labour Government got in then it would certainly be on the Agenda...far more than repealing the ban on Fox Hunting.
While Switzerland allows it there will be even more flights over from the UK and other Countries...
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Post by outside cat @wino on Jun 2, 2015 1:08:37 GMT 2
Is that an EU thing that you can come from outside to Swizzerland and use there systems to die?
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Post by shrjeff on Jun 2, 2015 8:52:05 GMT 2
switzerland is not in the eu...
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Post by Grecian on Jun 2, 2015 20:16:36 GMT 2
But you know what Wino meant so why be a tad Snidey with your comment and not add to the discussion eh, Shrjeff?
Looks like Dignitas are open to all comers but I don't get how they are funded as :-
"a one-off joining fee of Swiss Francs (CHF) 200 and an annual membership subscription of at least CHF 80"
That's less in £Pounds but I can't see many renewing their Annual Membership! (It's a bit like the books in a Library about Suicide racking up a fee for not being returned!)
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Post by outside cat @wino on Jun 3, 2015 1:09:03 GMT 2
That does show my EU arrogance/ignorance, although I should have figured as I went through Swiss passport control a couple of years ago.
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Post by Grecian on Jun 3, 2015 21:18:48 GMT 2
Only Algeria and Greenland have left the EU but why they were allowed to join in the first place is a mystery to me.
Last I looked, Algeria is in Africa and Greenland is full of Penguins and seals and feck all else.
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Post by outside cat @wino on Jun 4, 2015 2:15:57 GMT 2
you for got snow/ice for Greenland. Algeria really?
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Post by Grecian on Jun 4, 2015 22:06:01 GMT 2
eh?
If it's Daft Post Day then I just finished 18 holes at East Devon Golf Course and the highlight was feeding a Pheasant out of my hand with grass half way down the Fairway on the 16th....
FORE!
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Post by outside cat @wino on Jun 4, 2015 23:15:28 GMT 2
Playing golf would make me suicidal....no need for the assist!
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Post by Grecian on Jun 5, 2015 0:13:18 GMT 2
So what makes you stop from being Suicidal then?
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 6, 2015 20:51:27 GMT 2
I have seen a few plays and movies showing the Swiss version of assisted suicide. It seems completely reasonable but requires extreme will power, since the person is left alone in a hotel room with the concoction to be taken after a very annoying and depressing lecture by the official "assistant."
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Post by Grecian on Jun 7, 2015 21:09:03 GMT 2
And that is based on "a few plays and movies showing the Swiss version of assisted suicide"?.....Oh dear.
Why don't you Post what your thoughts are, MrK?...
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Post by outside cat @wino on Jun 7, 2015 22:57:24 GMT 2
So what makes you stop from being Suicidal then? Health Quality of family life Activities to look forward too Interesting work Not playing golf
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Post by Grecian on Jun 8, 2015 20:56:58 GMT 2
That's a mighty fine list there but I would say that playing Golf with my Son on a beautiful day with pheasants running all over the course and a Swan protecting her 5 young Cygnets in a small pond by the 16th green may well fall into either "Quality of Family Life" or "Activities to look forward too"?..
We digress...
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Post by Netsuke on Jun 11, 2015 12:27:09 GMT 2
This is a difficult one for me. I understand the feeling, or sympathy or 'humanity'? in helping someone whose life is reduced to a vegetable, or someone in agonising pain from cancer, terminally ill, only a short while to live.
For me, there could be nothing worse than being paralised, unable to speak or communicate but still having brain function, knowing exactly what was going on, yet unable to do anything about it. It would be living a silent scream - a nightmare so ghastly you would feel like you were going mad. Were I in that situation, then yes, I hope someone would put me out of my misery.
But, and here is the but, I have this "thing", my conscience tells me that it is wrong to kill oneself or help someone else to commit suicide. It's all tied up with God and religion. On the one hand, I can see the good of it, on the other hand I can see the wrong of it. Were I in government and had to vote yea or nay, I couldn't in good conscience vote yes. Even though I can see where it can be helpful. I would either have to vote no, or abstain.
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Post by Grecian on Jun 11, 2015 20:24:32 GMT 2
Good reply there..
"being paralysed, unable to speak or communicate but still having brain function, knowing exactly what was going on, yet unable to do anything about it" and yet you can still see and appreciate things that Life has given us be it a Film, the Countryside, a work of Art, a great sporting occasion etc?
The Bloke in my OP could have been paralysed from the neck down but had full brain power and was normal apart from his paralysis. I think that he's doing Disabled people a disservice in that he's saying if I am like this then Life isn't worth living? I think that it's an Easy Option for him. And his whole Family were there for the Last Supper probably crying a lot and thinking what kind of madness is this?
I think that he needed a slap and to wake up and realise what a selfish and bad decision he was making.
Apart from that, I agree with large parts of your Post.
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