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Post by ninchursanga on Oct 22, 2013 2:30:09 GMT 2
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Post by ninchursanga on Oct 22, 2013 3:14:50 GMT 2
Damnit! Should've phrased the whole thing differently. Some fucking dumbwits in Holland still haven't understood that time's have changed. What a bunch of fucking idiots.
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Post by outside cat @wino on Oct 22, 2013 4:33:49 GMT 2
So its from a newspaper that's for Black Americans. I can see why people would be pissed off. I can't see a problem with traditions like that but if it causes hurt to a broad community then governments are duty bound to pull it.
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Post by Grecian on Oct 22, 2013 20:18:37 GMT 2
Just Ban the Fuckers...
Same with the Niqab, Burka and Chador in England.
Just eff off with that Shite and stop cheating at Driving Tests!
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Post by welle on Oct 23, 2013 20:33:09 GMT 2
Nin, we didn't have the same tradition in Germany or Switzerland. However we do have St Nikolaus and Knecht Ruprecht. Knecht Ruprecht is black because he comes in through the chimney. Doesn't have anything to do with skin color/ethnicity. What is the Dutch tradition like? I've read different things about it.
Would love to hear your explanation of the custom or anyone who knows how it's celebrated.
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Post by gnd on Oct 24, 2013 12:44:21 GMT 2
Seconding welle´s, also wondering. Can´t open that link. Norway has Mokka-Bønner (coffee bean shaped coffee-chocolates) which some think the front packaging is racist. I just thought the packaging was pretty (though I´m not aware of it in any context other than that). www.ingebretsens.com/foods/candy/mokka-bnner.htmlThis on the other hand, a cake of a black ethnic warrior woman, to highlight FGM, I did think was racist, and frankly ugly. Reminds me of 1980´s ceramic wall "art" (similar body and face) people here used to hang on their wall (not to be racist, just as it was unusual, I suppose). www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/17/sweden-europe-news |
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Post by gnd on Oct 24, 2013 12:45:26 GMT 2
and gross too, I´ll add. (Read the article....)
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Post by lumi on Oct 24, 2013 14:01:56 GMT 2
Do those opposed to black Pete want there to be no more Pete associated with this time of year in Holland or do they want Pete to be white? Because to me it is the opponents to Black Pete that are making it racist when it isn't (unless there is something about it that I don't know, which is of course possible). If I understand it correctly, the Pete character happens to be black but is someone who is looked upon favourably, he is not some horrible character or anything, right? I could understand being opposed if he was a bad character in some way but he is celebrated and looked up to by children, right?
I propose that the black Pete character remains as is the long tradition in Holland but henceforth be referred to simply as Pete, no reference to his colour in his name. But he should remain black in skin colour as is the tradition as to change his skin colour to me would indicate a hatred for black people and would be racist. What can anyone complain about then?!
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Post by shrjeff on Oct 24, 2013 16:12:31 GMT 2
with the blackface and the wigs, there seems to be no alternative but to see the character as racist... and the black person quoted in the article verifies that the other kids related to the racist element...
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Post by Grecian on Oct 24, 2013 19:57:01 GMT 2
Political Korecktness gone fucking mad!
I grew up on the folowing and it did me no harm....
Fucking Pussies these days...
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Post by lumi on Oct 24, 2013 20:55:16 GMT 2
with the blackface and the wigs, there seems to be no alternative but to see the character as racist... and the black person quoted in the article verifies that the other kids related to the racist element... that in itself doesn't make it racist IMO. Its like saying we should ban goldilocks because some children are teased for having blonde hair with ringlets and white skin. I can understand wanting to change the name simply to "Pete" instead of the current "black Pete" but to abolish the character all together seems like political correctness gone mad to me. The character is a positive figure and happens to be black. Not everything said or done with people or characters with dark skin is racist-seems to me that people cry 'racism' every time a character is dark skinned yet if only white skinned characters are present they also say its racist because other ethnicities aren't represented. |
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Post by Grecian on Oct 24, 2013 22:29:28 GMT 2
Totally agree with Lumi on this...
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Post by welle on Oct 25, 2013 2:44:13 GMT 2
I'm having visions of a bunch of ' White Petes' instead of the 'Black Petes'. Not to make too much light of it, but picking out the wigs and putting on the costumes would be fun. Is the problem with the Petes being black that they are helpers/servants?
Nin, we need the inside scoop.
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Post by gnd on Oct 25, 2013 3:24:34 GMT 2
well, to be fair, racism against black-skinned people is nothing in the ballpark with teasing a white person with cracker, honkey, blonde hair. There just isn´t the historical context of comparison, going back generations, including harsh, horrible, degrading, belittling, demeaning generally, affecting one´s societal status, career, housing, food availability.
Having said that, I have no idea about the Black Pete, other than where I come from Black-face is historically degrading, demeaning, racist. The little I had time to read, the idea of a Santa friend giving out candy to the little kids seems sweet, but the black-face seems, today, to be unnecessary. Are there black Dutch living there---what if they put on the thick black paint, red paint lips, and afro wigs. Would that be ok, is that a tradition for the blacks to go OTT black Pete too, or just the whites. As a white person, I´d be absolutely mortified to dress up like that, and my black friends see me, as it would be blatantly racist where I come from...akin to putting on a KKK hood, maybe worse.
As an outsider, if a white walked around looking like that in any of the cities I´ve lived in in the US, I´m nearly 100% sure they´d end up in the hospital or worse, especially in say, LA, Memphis, New Orleans....as the face paint is too similar to Black Face, which is considered racist in the US.
As a white person, if I saw my kids dressed as that, I´d be very cross, and make them take it off. Interesting issue differences seen from inside versus outside. Maybe it´s not racist...but I don´t know any black friends who would agree that it was not racist.
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Post by ninchursanga on Oct 25, 2013 3:55:58 GMT 2
The Dutch Black Pete has little to do with a person that was blackened when slipped through a chimney. The Afro wig, the red painted lips, the golden earrings - you really don't end up looking like that when you fall through a chimeny.
I agree with what GND said and think many Dutch just completely fail to recognize the historical context of racism.
Indeed the Black Pete is not nasty, but instead he's a bit silly and acts like clown. Now that also fits how many Dutch view their black fellow country men: as slightly stupid. That is imho, not very positive.
Welle, I've never seen a Surinamer dressing up as Black Pete and then topping it off with extra red lips or another afro wig. But I have witnessed white Dutch people teasing Surinamers if they'll play for Black Pete during St. Nicholas cause since their black they won't have to paint their face. And hahaha, that's supposed to be a very funny joke.
Imho, there are now just more Surinamers who start to speak up against the latent and very prevalent racism in Dutch society. Which is difficult for the Dutch because so far they've swept their Colonial past under the rug and prefer to think of themselves as incredibly tolerant.
Personally I think it's time to make some changes to Black Pete and make him look more like someone who fell through that chimney and less like an Afro-American clown.
But this Black Pete is very much beloved by the (white) Dutch and it'll be very difficult to change this tradition. The UN advising to abandon St.Nicholas alltogether was just like oil into the fire! Holland without St.Nicholas is just unthinkable. It's like forbidding others to celebrate Eid, Christamas or Easter.
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Post by Grecian on Oct 25, 2013 19:44:57 GMT 2
I've lost the will to go on.....
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Post by welle on Oct 26, 2013 1:19:08 GMT 2
meet the new White Petes!  |
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Post by Big Iain on Oct 26, 2013 9:46:42 GMT 2
What a sad, sad OP. racism is a word that gets thrown around far too readily these days. Mostly it's a heap of shite and an overdose of PCness. my first visit to Amsterdam was during the Swartze Peter season and I loved it (as did wifey who as Colombian was in fact dark skinned) and everyone was loving the parades etc regardless of their colour. Get over yourselves! There is nothing harmful in this tradition
Ps, love The Black and White Minstrals too, Grecs. No doubt that means that to some people we should be out in our white hoods burning crosses on lawns?
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Post by Baz Faz on Oct 26, 2013 11:01:38 GMT 2
I'm with Iain on this. By chance we were having dinner with Dutch friends on Wednesday who were bringing us up to date on this. The Black Petes are actually distributing presents on Sint Niklaas. Was it the mayor of Amsterdam who suggested mixing Yellow Petes among the Black Petes. I suspect this would be a racist slur against Chinese.
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Post by gnd on Oct 26, 2013 12:55:00 GMT 2
A bit about the actual background of minstrels, and besides the Black Face, it was how the black-faced character was portrayed as a bumbling, stupid idiot falling all over themselves to please the white folk. Uncle Tom, slavery, lynching culture.
Interesting the difference of opinion on here.
If I was black and surrounded by whites, all enjoying such a parade, I too might choose to just go with the flow---which is exactly what the black Dutch are saying: it was too uncomfortable to say anything, they had to just grow up as children being made fun of, because of their black skin.
Agree to disagree:)
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Post by gnd on Oct 26, 2013 12:55:34 GMT 2
meet the new White Petes! hmmm. ....where is their "candy" ?,) |
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Post by slowcoach on Oct 26, 2013 14:41:49 GMT 2
Santiago Matamoros (St James the Moor Slayer) is petty big around here where non-PC is the norm. Here is an article from the Telegraph from when they thought it might be best to remove his statue from the Cathedral in Santiago and thought perhaps not. I neither know nor much care as to whether it is still there. |
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Post by Grecian on Oct 26, 2013 19:13:33 GMT 2
The Black and White Mintrels were a dance troupe, gnd. no bumbling about etc.
get your facts right next time, for a change.
The White Petes are just a bunch of Gayers.
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Post by gnd on Oct 26, 2013 20:37:52 GMT 2
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Post by gnd on Oct 26, 2013 20:41:22 GMT 2
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Post by ninchursanga on Oct 26, 2013 22:32:43 GMT 2
Racism is maybe stretching it too far, I could agree with that. But I'd say the Black Peter figure/dress-up is just not appropriate anymore. There are other countries with a St.Nicholas tradition where he comes with a darkish helper but nowhere does he look remarkably close to blackface/Afro-American.
Blackening the face I don't find disturbing, but those golden earrings and the overdone red lips are just.....to much.
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Post by gnd on Oct 26, 2013 22:46:29 GMT 2
Racism is cultural. Some countries think Wog, Gollywog, are fine to use; maybe they are. The cartoons I posted above ,are indeed racist, but still I enjoy them, and remember some of them/similar cartoons from childhood. I appreciate their context, but also think they are entertaining. Scrub makes a good point, what is KKK hood burning crosses for some, is entertaining for others. Probably we all like something, find something entertaining, which might be considered racist, demeaning, to others. Culture, history, experience, race, etc all play a part in what we like, find entertaining, or maybe we like something because it reminds us of places we grew up, people, accents, attitude. This for instance, an old Mad TV (similar to SNL) skit, Bon Qui Qui. Some might find it racist, but I like it as it fondly reminds me of growing up in places with people who spoke in lots of different ways, not just a bland tv newscaster accent or attitude. Attitude, culture, accent, flava. Anyone not from that, would probably assume it was racist, or demeaning. www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZkdcYlOn5M SKIP the ad |
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Post by gnd on Oct 26, 2013 22:48:23 GMT 2
oops sorry Big Iain not Scrub
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Post by mcnutters on Oct 27, 2013 1:21:44 GMT 2
Well, I have posted it in other places
My experience is of moving to Hoofddorp, just outside Amsterdam, and travelling back home from work and seeing this guy get on the bus dressed up in his finest.
I can still see my face. I really didn't know what was going on.
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Post by ninchursanga on Oct 27, 2013 2:16:43 GMT 2
Bloody hell, mcnutter pitty you couldn't take a selfie at the time!
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