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Post by Baz Faz on Jan 17, 2024 13:15:52 GMT 2
1. We'll start with the projected new tunnel under the Thames which is necessary because the existing tunnel and bridge can't cope. Indeed they couldn't cope when this new tunnel was mooted in 2009. The planning application (just the plan, please note) has already cost £267 million. The plan is 359 pages long. A decision on the plan is expected in 6 months time. Then of course there will be objections and appeals. It reminds me of buying my first house in 1965. Our solicitor did research and alerted us that there was a plan to widen the road which would mean taking down one of our rooms. But he wasn't overly concerned since the plan was 30 years old and presumably had been forgotten.
2. The UK (along with the US) has been targetting Houthi bases in Yemen which have been attacking ships in the Red Sea. The British planes have come from bases in Cyprus, necessitating refuelling en route. Why doesn't Britain use its aircraft carriers? Britain has two and both are available (a rare occurrence since one or other is usually being repaired). Ah, but aircraft carriers need support vessels. Yes, and Britain has those too. Unhappily (and Putin will have taken this on board) there are no crews for the support vessels. So the aircraft carriers spend most of their time in port.
3. Britain may not have money to spend on its armed forces but it can afford a Health Security Agency. We are having a cold spell (Scrubb would consider -1c a warm spell). The desk jockeys at the Health Security Agency have issued "Top Tips for Keeping Warm". The first tip is "Keep Warm". Obviously this defeats the British so they give some advice. This is achieved by heating rooms "to a temperature that is comfortable". Who'd have thought it? The Met Office felt it was missing out on the fun so decided it should publish tips of its own. "It's really important to wrap up warm when you go outside." They have further advice. "When the weather is really bad it's best to stay indoors."
I am waiting for advice on how to put on a sweater to keep warm. This is a tricky one because I have observed that men and women do it differently. Now you are treading on dangerous ground because you you have to decide who is a woman and who is a man. A woman has a vulva and a man has a penis? No, no, no, that will never do. Too simple, way out of date. I have observed how men and women takeoff a sweater. Women cross their arms and pull it up; men grab it by the shoulders and haul it straight up.
I think you have heard quite enough from me for now.
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Post by slowcoach on Jan 17, 2024 13:47:45 GMT 2
Just so much good stuff here, where to start? I learned only a week or two ago that it is not inoffensive to use the term man or men to imply possession of a penis, for that the approved terminology is "people with penises" and similarly for woman or women, and you guest it, "people with vulvas". Now my question. Is the sweater donning procedure dependant on the designation men/women or the more clearly observable, (in theory at least) penises and vulvas. I have considered that it is perhaps best not to lend woollens to "people with breasts" unless you want them pulled out of shape. I think you have heard quite enough from me for now. Not a bit of it! I have observed how men and women take off a sweater. Women cross their arms and pull it up; men grab it by the shoulders and haul it straight up. Oooooops!
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Post by Voy on Jan 17, 2024 15:06:10 GMT 2
both of you... keep it up, Please ! ( said SHE, a "person with a vulva", who will pay attention next time I need to put on (and then take off) a sweater !
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Post by slowcoach on Jan 17, 2024 15:29:21 GMT 2
I presume it governs whether the garment, sweater/tee-shirt ends up inside out or not. I'm for inside out, except when I don't notice that has already happened before I put it on.
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Post by lumi on Jan 17, 2024 16:35:29 GMT 2
Have you considered the possibility that the tips for keeping warm are written to the average intelligence level of the population? Perhaps it hints more at the failing education system if those are the required specialist tips... Or maybe the people working in those departments are doing the quiet quitting trend or whatever the latest version is called, but you have cleverly caught on to their lack of effort for the task...
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Post by Baz Faz on Jan 17, 2024 19:31:29 GMT 2
I have just come across more helpful advice about heating:
try reducing the flow temperature for the water going to your radiators to 60C.
A higher temperature will heat your home faster, but it could also mean bigger bills.
Now you know.
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Post by auntieannie on Jan 17, 2024 23:09:20 GMT 2
oh,lordamercy...
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Post by Netsuke on Jan 18, 2024 5:48:15 GMT 2
Baz, you didn’t mention a beanie and gloves. Why is that I wonder?
And there is no confusion distinguishing men from women. Remember Kindergarten Cop and the little boy who stands up in class and tells Mr Kimble, “Boys have a penis. Girls have a vagina.” It’s simple really once you know the facts of life. You can have as many people as you like identifying as wardrobes, whistles or whettingers, but forget this modern crap - you’re either one or the other!
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Post by Scrubb on Jan 18, 2024 7:32:58 GMT 2
Baz, you didn’t mention a beanie and gloves. Why is that I wonder? And there is no confusion distinguishing men from women. Remember Kindergarten Cop and the little boy who stands up in class and tells Mr Kimble, “Boys have a penis. Girls have a vagina.” It’s simple really once you know the facts of life. You can have as many people as you like identifying as wardrobes, whistles or whettingers, but forget this modern crap - you’re either one or the other! Except it's really not the case! There are hermaphrodites, and people who are intersex, just for starters. I just read a story about a woman in her mid 30s, pregnant for the 3rd time, who discovered during an amniocentesis test that she had a set of testes inside. And another story about a 66 year old man who found out that he's genetically female. I read an article by a genetics instructor who said that she won't ever let her students test themselves in their labs or use each other as subjects, because if the class has more than about 40 people in it, there's likely to be someone who discovers that she or he has an unexpected gender chromosonal situation - they don't have the usual "XX" or "XY" genes that mean female or male. And those are just the "sex determination" genes. There are more possibilities! When someone's brain is biologically different from their body, you can't say "well, you have a penis so you're a boy!". Or, you can just as easily say "your brain is female, so you're a girl!" My motto is that a person knows better who they are, than I do!
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 18, 2024 8:58:03 GMT 2
The "qualifications" for fitting into the category of intersex are disputed as being too wide. One example is a woman with only one ovary so there is some dispute as to the generally accepted norm of 1.7%. "For example, the best-known estimate of the prevalence of intersex individuals is 1.7% of the total population, drawn from a 2000 study by a team of researchers that included Brown University sexologist Anne Fausto-Sterling. However, Sterling's study used a very broad definition of intersexuality, which has been criticized by other experts. In a response in the Journal of Sex Research, psychologist Leonard Sax offered a narrower definition of intersexuality, which resulted in an estimated concentration of 0.018% of the population—nearly 100 times less common than Fausto-Sterling's estimate."
This is a considerable difference. I am though quite happy to have three categories for sex - male, female and other (or some non-offensive word if that is objected to) but if you don't identify as male or female, i.e. non-binary and want to sub-divide that last category then you can argue amongst yourselves but are still officially 'other'. Leave me out of it and if you want respect for your wishes, then conversely, I also want respect for my wishes. It can't be one sided whilst you try and force me to abide by yours.
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Post by shrjeff on Jan 18, 2024 10:15:43 GMT 2
interesting about XXY being klinefelter's syndrome... there were those back in the day (before genetic testing so all was based upon clinical assessments) who asserted that king Tut suffered from klinefelters which is often accompanied by depression...
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Post by slowcoach on Jan 18, 2024 11:11:08 GMT 2
There are hermaphrodites, and people who are intersex, just for starters. I just read a story about a woman in her mid 30s, pregnant for the 3rd time, who discovered during an amniocentesis test that she had a set of testes inside. And another story about a 66 year old man who found out that he's genetically female. I do not wish to distract from your more general points but I really do not think true hermaphroditism exists in humans. We only have a single source of materials from which to form our differentiated characteristics so the following gonadal compinations are possible and known. Gonads that contain both ovarian and testicular material. One Ovary and One Testicle. Undeveloped, undifferentiated non-functional gonads. So my best guess is that pregnant women had a single undescended testicle to go with a functioning ovary. True duplication doesn't happen, e.g. one can't have both a penis and a clitoris but one can have any number of in between forms. Very rarely one isn't one but two. It is possible to carry around bits of an internalised twin but that is not hermaphroditism.
I note that I used the phrase "pregnant women", and I wonder how long it will be before that becomes by force of correctness "pregnant person". It is an area that is becoming a minefield for the outsider.
We pick our ways through the complexities of: Female - Male (SEX) Woman/Girl - Man/Boy (GENDER IDENTITY) Feminine - Masculine (GENDER EXPRESSION) Even more taxing is SEXUAL ORIENTATION. Better to leave that till later. I have also left out the in between categories e.g. intersex, non-binary, androgynous etc., again for good reason, because it ain't that neat. The three categorisations above are spectra not pigeonholes. Further still we have transgender, a concept that as currently used is very slippery as it suggests atypical combinations of SEX and GENDER IDENTITY, Female boys and Male girls. when it is already established that none of these terms are absolutes. FWIW I think much, most of the confusion and frustration stems from our persistent holding onto a fictional absolute notion of Female/Male SEX. Particularly any requirement to register such a distinction on a Birth Certificate with all the associated problems caused by a rushed AFAB/AMAB designation having to be made fact by assignment surgery. A surgical assignment that can be in need of reversing later on. I would favour dropping SEX as a characterisation as soon and as much as possible starting with Birth Certificates, followed by discontinuing its use as the basis of any discrimination later in life, e.g. schooling. Again we get our knockers knickers in a twist. We talk about single sex schooling (SEX) and set up Girl's and Boy's Schools (GENDER IDENTITY). Best just to have mixed schools if you ask me. Mixed is such a useful term in these contexts.
SEXUAL ORIENTATION: Attraction to a person of a particular .... Particular what? Would it be one of, or any of, or all of SEX, GENDER IDENTITY, GENDER EXPRESSION. Whichever, it makes such terms as Gay and Lesbian rather dated, rather naïve. If a person is primarily attracted to Male/Men/Masculine types should we be further complicating the issue by our differentiating by that person's own SEX, GENDER IDENTITY, GENDER EXPRESSION. The combinations are many and once one tries to account for our spectral nature they are innumerable. That all these gradations exists is fine by me, but do we really need to attach a name to each location on the such a multidimensional manifold.
What I hoped would come of a broadening of the discussion was that we would become more relaxed about life, love, sex. Instead the tendency is for getting more and more uptight. I retire to untwist my knickers.
ETA: Correct for the an apparent Freudian Slip (indicated as underscore to bold)
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Post by lumi on Jan 18, 2024 12:03:03 GMT 2
Baz, you didn’t mention a beanie and gloves. Why is that I wonder? And there is no confusion distinguishing men from women. Remember Kindergarten Cop and the little boy who stands up in class and tells Mr Kimble, “Boys have a penis. Girls have a vagina.” It’s simple really once you know the facts of life. You can have as many people as you like identifying as wardrobes, whistles or whettingers, but forget this modern crap - you’re either one or the other! Except it's really not the case! There are hermaphrodites, and people who are intersex, just for starters. I just read a story about a woman in her mid 30s, pregnant for the 3rd time, who discovered during an amniocentesis test that she had a set of testes inside. And another story about a 66 year old man who found out that he's genetically female. I read an article by a genetics instructor who said that she won't ever let her students test themselves in their labs or use each other as subjects, because if the class has more than about 40 people in it, there's likely to be someone who discovers that she or he has an unexpected gender chromosonal situation - they don't have the usual "XX" or "XY" genes that mean female or male. And those are just the "sex determination" genes. There are more possibilities! When someone's brain is biologically different from their body, you can't say "well, you have a penis so you're a boy!". Or, you can just as easily say "your brain is female, so you're a girl!" My motto is that a person knows better who they are, than I do! Wow!! I genuinely had no idea about most of this. Fascinating stuff.
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Post by slowcoach on Jan 18, 2024 12:46:58 GMT 2
Back to the sweater/tee-shirt indicator test.
For me, definitely crossed arms and turn inside out and that's that for sleeveless and short sleeved garments
For long sleeves do I:
a) grab the cuffs and pull thereby turning the garment back the right way, b) shake the sleeves down thereby completing the turning inside out process.
I think I must do both but I know not what the deciding factor be.
I will have to wait until I am not thinking about it until after 'tis done. I shouldn't like to prejudice the process.
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Post by Baz Faz on Jan 18, 2024 13:03:09 GMT 2
Tomorrow we are flying to Italy and I have got our passports out. Mine makes no mention of sex/gender. However at the bottom of the page there is a line: REDACTED So that is my passport number, country of issue, date of birth,M (for Male, Mrs Faz's passport has an F) and then seven numerals that have no obvious relevance. Until about 10 years ago when flying to Thailand you had to fill in an Immigration card. The choice was Male or Female. What did the Ladyboys (of which Bangkok had many) do?
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Post by slowcoach on Jan 18, 2024 13:09:39 GMT 2
It is sometimes joked that XYs are half a chromosome short of a genome. Poor little Y doesn't have a fiend and doesn't do a lot in many of the body's tissues
So little that during cell division just a little bit of butterfingers and it can be dropped altogether spontaneously creating a single X germ line this is so common in fast dividing cell types e.g. those of the immune system that by my age it is commonplace. It is not known what effect this may have, from nothing except saving a little energy at each further division, to an impaired immune system and a shorter life expectancy.
Mosaicism of which this is only one type can occur in many ways, places, and stages of life. (See Scrubb above).
I believe that it is such a common event that we are all almost surely mosaics of some sorts or other.
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Post by auntieannie on Jan 18, 2024 17:55:38 GMT 2
Sorry @baz! my paranoid self decided to redact your passport number from this page open to the internet.
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Post by Baz Faz on Jan 18, 2024 19:06:00 GMT 2
Tomorrow we are flying to Italy and I have got our passports out. Mine makes no mention of sex/gender. However at the bottom of the page there is a line: REDACTED So that is my passport number, country of issue, date of birth,M (for Male, Mrs Faz's passport has an F) and then seven numerals that have no obvious relevance. Until about 10 years ago when flying to Thailand you had to fill in an Immigration card. The choice was Male or Female. What did the Ladyboys (of which Bangkok had many) do? Why has Proboards redacted the line from my passport? It is of no conceivable use for 2 reasons. First, it is incomplete. Second, I altered it.
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Post by kuskiwi on Jan 18, 2024 20:53:13 GMT 2
Just checked my old passport and my first one says I'm Miss and female. The next series all call me Mrs and female. The last one, my legal names only and no gender.
Ps. I work with a Trans gender person, male to female and if the pronouns get mixed up, not an issue and usually says, I'm as confused as you are and smiles.
Just removed a t-shirt. Using Baz's info I'm female.
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Post by Scrubb on Jan 19, 2024 2:31:41 GMT 2
I am though quite happy to have three categories for sex - male, female and other (or some non-offensive word if that is objected to) but if you don't identify as male or female, i.e. non-binary and want to sub-divide that last category then you can argue amongst yourselves but are still officially 'other'. Leave me out of it and if you want respect for your wishes, then conversely, I also want respect for my wishes. It can't be one sided whilst you try and force me to abide by yours. How many people have you me who have tried to force you this way? My motto is that I'll call people whatever they want to be called. It just seems polite.
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Post by Scrubb on Jan 19, 2024 2:37:24 GMT 2
slow, I found a page that looks quite informative about hermaphrodism. HermaphrodismIt says there are 4 types of hemaphrodism and the first 2 are as you describe, not "true" hermaphrodism, but rather the appearance of mismatched internal and external genitalia. However, it also lists "true gonadal hermaphrodism": So, it seems that it is possible to actually have both sets of sexual characteristics.
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Post by Scrubb on Jan 19, 2024 2:38:22 GMT 2
As for the shirt test - I noticed the difference many years ago, when I observed Mr_S taking his shirt off in what seemed a very odd way. Odd because it's not how I do it! I'm female, apparently, and he's male, apparently.
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 19, 2024 9:07:07 GMT 2
How many people have you me who have tried to force you this way? My motto is that I'll call people whatever they want to be called. It just seems polite. Several. But that is to do with pronouns. I have no problem the person identifying however they please. The issue is bureaucratically if they want to identify as something other than male or female then they fall into the 'other' category - otherwise how do you manage filling out e.g. booking forms for flights as a simple example? Do they want a drop down menu that is longer than the number of countries and constantly changes? It's purely for practical reasons, nothing more. If they want to be called something, specifically a name, no problem. They can be Bert, Jane, Blanket, Moon Juice or whatever. If they "present" as a male, their pronouns will be he/him and vice versa, she/her unless they tell me different and I will attempt to use them but in the heat of conversation I may make a genuine mistake. If they get all huffy, which one did, I told them it was somewhat self-centred to expect nearly eight billion people to revolve around your wishes. I have mis-gendered one poor soul who gave the attitude of they will be traumatised for life and will need constant therapy. I said you've got a five o'clock shadow and the voice of Paul Robeson (blank looks from that though) so stop being a Diva. Gender identity is a minefield I'd rather not get involved in because there is no doing right for doing wrong. Biology though will always trump what you have decided to be that morning.
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 19, 2024 9:11:38 GMT 2
As for clothes, I take them off depending on if I will wear it again. If not then it get pulled off inside out. If so then my hands go to my collar and pulled up.
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Post by slowcoach on Jan 19, 2024 16:45:01 GMT 2
Crossed arms: I see I am in very good company. Now is my manner because, as might be suspected, that I'm really just a Big Girl's Blouse Jumper, a girly with a penis, or is it I've had, for most of my life, Long Hair.
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Post by Scrubb on Jan 19, 2024 22:21:35 GMT 2
How many people have you me who have tried to force you this way? My motto is that I'll call people whatever they want to be called. It just seems polite. Several. But that is to do with pronouns. I have no problem the person identifying however they please. The issue is bureaucratically if they want to identify as something other than male or female then they fall into the 'other' category - otherwise how do you manage filling out e.g. booking forms for flights as a simple example? Do they want a drop down menu that is longer than the number of countries and constantly changes? It's purely for practical reasons, nothing more. If they want to be called something, specifically a name, no problem. They can be Bert, Jane, Blanket, Moon Juice or whatever. If they "present" as a male, their pronouns will be he/him and vice versa, she/her unless they tell me different and I will attempt to use them but in the heat of conversation I may make a genuine mistake. If they get all huffy, which one did, I told them it was somewhat self-centred to expect nearly eight billion people to revolve around your wishes. I have mis-gendered one poor soul who gave the attitude of they will be traumatised for life and will need constant therapy. I said you've got a five o'clock shadow and the voice of Paul Robeson (blank looks from that though) so stop being a Diva. Gender identity is a minefield I'd rather not get involved in because there is no doing right for doing wrong. Interesting! I have yet to meet anyone who gets huffy about it. Biology though will always trump what you have decided to be that morning. Which biology, though? As noted above, sometimes your brain biology and your other bits biology don't match!
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 20, 2024 0:30:45 GMT 2
There are anatomical differences in male and female brains as far as I know which relate to the different male and female body. I'd stand corrected on this but I doubt you'd find a brain that shows all the anatomy of being female in a body that is male. A male can think he's female all he wants (and vice versa) but if they happen to die and their unknown body is found, what sex do you think the doctors/scientists will say that body is? Would it be a John Doe or as the person identified as and thought themselves as, a Jane Doe? "Biology though will always trump what you have decided to be that morning."
I'm certainly no medical expert, far from it, but all to often it seems now someone's "truth" is opinion based and not factually based. If what they say or think is not backed up by facts, you cannot call them out on it as not only will they be offended, you'd be accused of being "....ist" or ".....phobic" or whatever. If their brain tells them they are female when they are biologically male then the problem/deception is with them, not with the rest of the world and the rest of the world shouldn't have to pander to their whims because they say so and they throw their toys out the pram and spit out their dummy. I will show them normal respect as I would any human but I won't be forced into their delusions because they kick up a fuss. And the more fuss they kick up, the less I'm inclined to accommodate them.
Males identifying as females and getting their trouser snakes and their plums out in women's toilets and changing rooms? Is any woman truly comfortable with that? Yet it has been forced upon women as though women have no say in the matter and their views are unimportant. Do Trans people stick up for the rights of biological women? Nope. Women are now being put under the thumb and ignored now more so than ever. The current state of affairs, including in sports, has set back the rights and the status of biological females in society to the 1930's.
I better stop there.
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Post by Scrubb on Jan 21, 2024 5:51:45 GMT 2
The information I have read says that yes, you can find a brain with an anatomy closer to a normal female's brain than a male's brain, in a person with a penis. From an article in Scientific American: It goes on to say that it's not 100% standard brain of the opposite gender, but some parts are definitely the same as a the opposite gender, so the researchers suggest there's a "transsexual" brain. There have been lots of studies - here's another one: I'm not a doctor/neuroscientist/psychologist either, but pretty much all the doctors/neuroscientists/psychologists who research gender dysphoria seem to conclude that all the evidence points towards a biological basis for it. They don't classify it as a "delusion" or a mental illness. And there's certainly no "cure" for it. Oh, and I'm perfectly, 100% comfortable and happy with trans women using the women's toilets, and don't feel like my rights are being trampled! Perhaps you didn't realize that women don't see each other naked in public toilets? As for changing rooms, well, I strongly suspect that a trans woman is a lot safer using a women's changing room than a men's. Trans people are at far greater risk of violence and abuse than any other sector of the population, but at least they won't get beat up in a women's changing room or toilet! I've only known a few trans women (that I know of - probably there have been others who I didn't realize). They were just women, as far as I was concerned, or as far as everyone around us was concerned. No one made a fuss about it, including them. Right now I have a cousin and a friend who both have a child in their 20s who is transgender. Both of these kids went through serious depression for many years before they acknowledged the issue and started to transition - and both of them are now so, so, so much happier. They are now both out of their depressions and doing well. It seems like they are much better off living as the gender they believe they are, than trying to pretend they feel ok as they were. And I just don't understand at all how it hurts anyone else in the world - or is anyone else's business!
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Post by slowcoach on Jan 21, 2024 8:10:29 GMT 2
Further to the above:
Dear Potters, your opinions please:
Is an arm crossing mode of sweater/tee-shirt removal more strongly associated with sex/gender or current/previous hairstyles?
I tried the straight arm method and garnered handfuls of hair.
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Post by slowcoach on Jan 21, 2024 9:05:04 GMT 2
ScrubbMy understanding is that Although still in the literature the term "True Hermaphroditism" and others are viewed as deprecated in paediatric circles. It's just a term and really doesn't matter much but any phrase that links "True" with "Hermaphroditism" would seem to imply two functional sets of sex organs, in full or in part. The examples you quoted seem to be the same as, similar to, the examples I quoted from the True Hermaphroditism Wikipedia page which commences with:
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