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Berlin
Dec 15, 2023 13:53:02 GMT 2
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Post by lumi on Dec 15, 2023 13:53:02 GMT 2
I would love any info on what it might be like to live in Berlin as an expat. I've done a bit of searching online but it's always good to hear the perspective of those you actually know.
I'm especially interested in the cigarette smoking situation. I can't stand the smell and have read that over 25% of people in Berlin are smokers. And that people are allowed to smoke in the enclosed bus and tram waiting areas. And despite most apartment buildings banning smoking in common indoor areas, people often still smoke in corridors and lifts. I am aware that the negative stories are most likely to be written about so am wondering what it is really like. Hoping rikita can comment on this!
Is there such a thing as whole apartment buildings where smoking is prohibited, even on your own balcony/inside own apartment?? (or is this merely my utopian dream?)
My husband's company/office is in the south of Berlin, so we wouldn't living in the city centre. Looks like the international schools are South-West and that many are difficult to get into (no available space). And that most teach in German rather than English which narrows down our potential schools for Little Lumi (I don't think full immersion is best for him).
Perhaps I am on the wrong forum to be asking these types of questions but giving it a go regardless. It was always a dream of mine to live in Germany but now that it is a possibility, I am not sure if I should go for it.
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Berlin
Dec 15, 2023 14:47:16 GMT 2
Post by OnlyMark on Dec 15, 2023 14:47:16 GMT 2
Lumi, I don't live in Berlin and I have only been there a few short times. I can tell you though of my experience in Frankfurt and Bonn/Cologne. Yes, there is more smoking than in a lot of European countries but it is far from the worst. There are nationwide bans on smoking in certain areas but I am aware in places it might not be strictly enforced - but that is generally just in certain bars and restaurants. I have lived in several blocks of apartments over many years and never seen anyone smoking in the corridors (nor in any other building) and never smelt smoke in the block itself from someone smoking in their apartment. I suppose there are those that will smoke on their balconies but they have slipped past me because again, I've not seen that or smelt that though I'd expect there would be some I just didn't notice as there was no smell.
If you were caught smoking on public transport, the Germans being how they are, would chuck you off. Certain railway stations do have a smoking area but generally there is a ban on the platform. In the areas you will see plenty of no smoking signs when using public transport and apart from the odd vagrant, they are adhered to. Going in and out of normal buildings the public have access to is also never a problem when inside - may be there might be the odd person standing outside but it's usually not intrusive and hardly noticed. Whole no smoking (even outside) apartment blocks? - never come across one but rentals do as expected specify no smoking inside. I have only stayed in one AirBnb in Germany that did allow it inside and it was so unusual I mentioned it to a few people who also said they'd never heard of it. It is also not really seen to see someone walking on the street smoking.
As I say, I can't speak specifically for Berlin, but out of living in England, the Philippines, Egypt, Jordan, Zambia and especially Bosnia, I find Germany in day to day life has the least problem. By the way, I see figures for smokers in Germany stated as below 20% to above 35%. Maybe it lies somewhere in between, but I can't say it's a noticeable problem for me daily. I hope Rikita can help more with her particular experience. Bear in mind though with my anecdotal impressions may be dependent on the 'class' of the areas I've lived, worked and done day to day things in. The only real times I've noticed is in the summer at some, but not all, outside cafes.
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Berlin
Dec 15, 2023 17:27:44 GMT 2
Post by rikita on Dec 15, 2023 17:27:44 GMT 2
i don't smoke ... i'd say ten or fifteen years ago it happened a lot more often that someone smoked nearby and it bothered me - but admittedly, i also don't go out to pubs or bars. pubs and bars need a specific license to allow smoking inside, but a lot of them have that license. restaurants usually don't allow smoking inside (in old times there used to be a smoking and a non smoking section, but now smokers have to go outside - so in summer, there might be some smokers at the outside tables, but again, in the last years it hasn't happened very often that someone smoked near me. though there is a pub (with a smoking license) in my house, and if my window is open in summer and there are a lot of people, i can sometimes smell the smoke - or maybe from my next door neighbours who smoke - though not so strongly that i personally am bothered by it (but i might not be as easily bothered by it).
in the streets in my area will sometimes someone be smoking while i walk - i would imagine that in the richer south western areas this will happen less often than in my area ... in the stations (and even more so on busses and trains) smoking is forbidden - occasionally someone will smoke in the station, anyway, but again, this seems to become less common over the years (and i never saw anyone smoking on the bus, as mark said, the driver would kick them out).
i don't know of apartment blocks that ban smoking altogether, but again, the amount of smokers will probably depend on the area (just looked at some statistics - apparently Steglitz-Zehlendorf has the lowest percentage of smokers, so as i said, the richer south west - while my area, which is a more central, poorer part of town, has a lot more smokers) ...
as for schools, i am not really sure - only ever looked into schools that offer a mixture of German and English, but I suppose there are also some only in English - or I think in case of the "Europa-Schulen", they start some kids in German, some in the other language (depending on the language they already know) and then over time they get some classes in German/in the other language ... I know the daughter of some friends went to a very small private school for a while (mainly because they wanted more flexibility than the German school system usually offers) - so there is that option, if you can afford it ... I could ask another friend about the school her daughters go to (I haven't been in touch with them for a few years, so can't say something about it right away, but from what i remember it is in English or at least most subjects in English - though their daughters went to a German daycare before, so they also speak German ...) It's true that it is not always easy to get into the school of your choice, unless it is the school that belongs to the area you live in - though i guess international schools are not in that system, anyway, so it doesn't matter where exactly you live ... again, no idea how easy or hard it is to get into those schools, as i never tried ...
Does your husband's work get involved with that type of thing at all (like give recommendations or help), or is it up to you to find an apartment and a school whenever he has to relocate for work?
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Berlin
Dec 15, 2023 19:12:39 GMT 2
Post by OnlyMark on Dec 15, 2023 19:12:39 GMT 2
I don't know regarding accommodation how much help you'd get from the company or what type you'd want. So with that in mind, if you were a normal resident trying to find an apartment it would be standard to go for something unfurnished as furnished places are relatively less available than in a lot of countries. You have heard about the kitchens? I'll mention it anyway in case not, but in an unfurnished place it would be rare to get one. A kitchen at all that is. Often you can buy the one from the previous tenant but not always. It does seem though that more and more places are including them though even when unfurnished. Be prepared to have to buy one, complete, then have it paid to be fitted and connected.
It does happen even though the previous tenant often has no use for taking their kitchen with them as it wouldn't fit their new place anyway, so they would just offer to sell it to you. They will also take their washing machine. And their lights. Yes, the whole apartment could well have no lights at all and all you have left are some random wires sticking out the ceiling. Wonderful. I had to deal with all that a couple of times but at least we bought the kitchen off them one time.
Don't forget to learn about the recycling bins and what can go where, also the timetable for you cleaning the steps inside as to when it is your turn, I had one place where we shared responsibility for cleaning snow off the pathways (and it had to be done before 7am in the morning (yeah, right, I'm really going to get up that early on a Sunday morning to do it in the winter). Got told off by the neighbour when I didn't do it early enough. Last thing is buy a 49 Euro ticket per month, if you would need one, that entitles you to travel on all local transport (trains and buses) for that time.
When my kids started schools there were none in my area that spoke solely English never mind their mother tongue of Spanish, so with help from the school we took them to they had German lessons. It was never my 'dream' to live in Germany but I am now and have before and yes, there are downsides, but nowhere is perfect and for me it is easy and relaxed. I see my time here as having a break from 'foreign lands'. I wouldn't want to live her permanently but for a few more years, certainly.
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Berlin
Dec 15, 2023 22:20:56 GMT 2
Post by Scrubb on Dec 15, 2023 22:20:56 GMT 2
Re: Smoking. It's still much more common in Europe than where I live in Canada, but every time I go to Europe I notice that smoking is decreasing and that it's not allowed in more and more places. Although I haven't been to Germany recently, I can tell you that in Switzerland a year ago I don't remember a single incidence of being exposed to smoke - and that is an ENORMOUS difference from even 2013. I'd be surprised if it was problematic in Berlin.
That said, you can always be unlucky. A woman I know here in Saskatoon almost moved out of her nice non-smoking apartment because some neighbour was smoking in theirs and it was coming through the airvents. Management wouldn't help.
But, it resolved somehow. And she's the only person I've known in that situation for a long time. I do hear some stories about people smoking on their balcony and it coming in through the window of other apartments too, I guess. But that could happen anywhere in the world.
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Berlin
Dec 15, 2023 22:37:50 GMT 2
Post by rikita on Dec 15, 2023 22:37:50 GMT 2
though cleaning the stairs or the pathway is not done in all apartment buildings - in all the ones i lived at, someone came to do that ... but yeah, the most common thing here is to rent an apartment empty - the person leaving it has to leave it renovated and empty, and then the next person re-does it to their liking, and the only thing in there is the gas stove, the toilet and the bath tub ... i suppose this works well for most people, as they rent for the long term (i've been in my current apartment since 2004), so want their own stuff ... in berlin you have some people who move more often, so there'll be some apartments with things in them - but in general, the housing market here is very tight (well, i suppose, it's like that everywhere in the bigger cities these days, really), so often you just take what you get ...
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Berlin
Dec 19, 2023 4:24:26 GMT 2
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Post by lumi on Dec 19, 2023 4:24:26 GMT 2
Thank you for all of the comments. It was very informative.
Interesting Scrubb that you never noticed any incidents of smoking in Switzerland this year. I was there in the summer (out of the large cities, in the mountains) and there were a couple of times I was bothered by people smoking near the train stations (mostly they were in the designated smoking area but it was very windy and it blew into where I was waiting for the train). One time the designated smoking area was directly outside the toilets so it was a really strong cigarette smell in there. I am aware that smoke bothers me more than the average person but that time, even my husband said how bad it was.
But it is true that it can happen anywhere, though of course it is more likely to happen in places which have a higher percentage of smokers. Our first apartment in Singapore constantly got filled with cigarette smoke form a neighbour who would chain smoke on their balcony. The times they smoke were not predictable so I could simply close windows in anticipation and it was too hot to not keep them open.
Interesting to hear about the kitchen in rentals in Germany. How easy is it to organise for someone to fit/install a kitchen? Do you tend to move in and then wait weeks for someone to install your kitchen?
I was reading about the Welcome Class that local schools in Berlin offer for non-German speaking foreign children. Sounds great if you plan to live there for a long time. In our case, I guess it would be a few years only so I am looking at the Bilingual schools, some of which are giverment/local schools. Plus an international school that I saw teaches exclusively in English.
My husband's company no longer pay for schooling or provide help with fining accommodation. We need to do the leg work and pay for it all ourselves. I get a discount on my sons school fees as one of my employment benefits but unless I get a job quickly at the same school we intend to send our son to, we will need to pay the full fees (and that is assuming private/international schools in Germany also offer this discount to staff).
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Berlin
Dec 19, 2023 10:04:58 GMT 2
Post by OnlyMark on Dec 19, 2023 10:04:58 GMT 2
The first place we rented was a house as we had the three small kids. This came with a kitchen. The second was and apartment that had no kitchen as it was recently renovated and we had a month before taking it up. I did the simpler option of going to Ikea with the measurements and using their planner on the computer had designed one to fit. They had the option then, because I don't know if it is still done but I think so, of getting them to check and fit it. They could do this within a couple of weeks and it turned out fine. It was a basic and functional kitchen and cost far less in time and money, far, far less, than going to a specialised kitchen company. The next apartment had a smaller kitchen area and I just bought what I wanted, again from Ikea, and fitted it myself. Took a couple of days. In the one we have now we bought the kitchen from the previous tenant complete. They'd gone through the process themselves with a bespoke kitchen company and it cost them a fortune it seems, looking at the paperwork they've left. As they were a young working couple it looks like they hardly used it, may the odd times at weekends, but we got a good deal as it was then five years old, but does look nearly new.
What did take the longest was the at least half a dozen ceiling lights they took with them and selecting, buying and fitting those. Same with the other apartments and house. I did it all myself though so it was cheaper and took less time. I'm not actually sure how "normal" people do the kitchen and lights. It's not discussion we've had with other people but maybe Rikita can say better than me. There are Berlin expat groups on facebook and elsewhere where you may find answers to that specific area.
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Berlin
Dec 19, 2023 18:30:46 GMT 2
via mobile
Post by lumi on Dec 19, 2023 18:30:46 GMT 2
Thanks, Mark. I was wondering on the dlfeasability of just buying an Ikea kitchen as we actually did that in our current house to get some extra bench and cupboard space (cheap landlord renovated before we moved in and only put one small bench at the small end of the kitchen which is filled by the stove and sink). Might be harder to install a full sink though so guessing we would need someone for that if we do move to Germany.
If the previous tenants have a nice kitchen to sell to the new tenant, I guess it works well. But I have seen some really dirty kitchens in my years of renting so having something new also has its benefits, I suppose.
I didn't realise it would take so much time to install light fittings. I am guessing most of the time is spent shopping for something you like?
I also meant to comment previously on shovelling the snow from apartment steps. I never knew tenants sometimes need to do that so I am glad you pointed it out. I wouldn't want to get up early to do that when it's my turn - think I'd try and find someone to pay instead. I can only imagine how hard it would be if you happen to be sick when your turn comes around.
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Berlin
Dec 19, 2023 22:44:49 GMT 2
Post by OnlyMark on Dec 19, 2023 22:44:49 GMT 2
"I am guessing most of the time is spent shopping for something you like?" Too right. My plan was to buy some cheap ones to at least get some light and then take time to look properly for the nice stuff. Well, it half worked out as we just went to Ikea and as they had a good selection, we bought all but a couple as 'keepers', and the two as cheap temporary ones we replaced as and when we came across some thing a bit more special. We had eight ceiling lights to put up in this apartment and that took me a day. Bear in mind we also bought three standing lamps you just plug in to the wall, so there was actually not much of a rush.
Kitchens - "Might be harder to install a full sink though so guessing we would need someone for that if we do move to Germany." If you use the Ikea planning and fitting service - and they won't fit a kitchen without them helping plan it to make sure it does fit - they will connect everything. Cooker, dishwasher, sink, extractor hood etc etc. Fit all the overhead cupboards, in fact everything. They will deliver all the kitchen take it into the apartment, unpack it, fit it and take all the packaging away. It's a full service. Not so cheap though as they do it calculated by metre length. I had this done completely also in Spain to our big one there. Then of course we used it for a year but one of us (not me) decided it could do with re-arranging. So I took it mostly out and switched it around.
With the standard of place you will probably be in the market for, I doubt the kitchen, if there is one to be bought or left, will be rough. It's not like those I've used in different countries. If you need a kitchen have a look at others apart from Ikea but for me, I know what I'm getting with them and they do some nice attractive stuff.
"I also meant to comment previously on shovelling the snow from apartment steps. I never knew tenants sometimes need to do that so I am glad you pointed it out." - as Rikita said, she doesn't. The reason being due probably to the size of the building with the apartments. The larger ones have a dedicated "Hausmeister"/Caretaker/Building Supervisor who has the job of doing all that and more. Especially the rubbish bins being put out on the right day and cleaning the internal hallways and steps. I had to clean the snow and keep the path trip/slip free because we were in a house. In other places which were apartments we had a resident who was also the caretaker. We did nothing. In this place now it is a building just on three floors with two apartments per floor. A resident is paid 120 euros a month to keep the path to the main door free of snow, leaves and so on and he keeps track of when to put the right bins out and does that. All we/I do is every other month, keep clean and check the steps inside from my apartment to the level above us. The alternate month my opposite neighbour does it.
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Berlin
Dec 19, 2023 23:03:29 GMT 2
Post by OnlyMark on Dec 19, 2023 23:03:29 GMT 2
Lastly, for now, Berlin has a reputation for a horrendous shortage of accommodation. If, you say, your husband's job is to the south, and I don't know how far south, but it may be that renting a small house is cheaper than an apartment. No idea what you want but it's a thought. We try and stay close enough to Mrs M's work that she can walk there in half an hour or so. Here now she can't, she has to get a bus or train, and there are constant delays and cancellations which cause us no end of difficulties. Car travel is possible but not only doesn't she have a parking space at work, the traffic/jams is just getting worse and worse - that's also why bikes, and especially electric bikes are becoming more and more of a necessity. The balance is what you want around you concerning where you stay (shops, infrastructure, countryside, parks etc), what you can afford, access to his work place, schools and so on.
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Berlin
Dec 20, 2023 4:30:40 GMT 2
Post by Scrubb on Dec 20, 2023 4:30:40 GMT 2
I'm surprised that your husband's company has made those changes - not paying for schooling, and not helping with accommodation, are pretty big losses! Sorry you have to deal with that.
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Berlin
Dec 20, 2023 17:42:37 GMT 2
via mobile
Post by lumi on Dec 20, 2023 17:42:37 GMT 2
I'm surprised that your husband's company has made those changes - not paying for schooling, and not helping with accommodation, are pretty big losses! Sorry you have to deal with that. I think it is more and more common these days. In Singapore, at least, it is almost a rarity that a company pays for kids schooling. The days of nice expat packages are long gone. I will say though that once my husband had to take a local contract (without the benefits of rent allowance and school fees paid etc), his salary was increased to allow for this. But of course, the cost of schooling and rent has gone up a lot (since covid, rent in Singapore more than doubled in most cases, some went even higher than that), and the salary did not increase to reflect the rising cost. Even in my job, as a teacher at an international school, my child doesn't attend for free. I had to work for 2 years full time before I was given a 50% discount in school fees (but I pay 100% for all of the add on fees they charge such as IT fee, facilities fee etc). Next year will be my 6th year at the school and I will get a 75% discount for my son's school fees. This is the first year they are offering this increased discount for staff who have 5 full time years of co tinuous employment. I am on a local contract (they won't hire me on an expat package). Teachers who are on expat packages (i.e. those who were hired from abroad get 100% of the school fees paid for 2 of their kids, plus a few thousand dollars towards accommodation expenses and better health insurance compared to colleagues like me on local contracts). What annoys me is that parents of kids I teach (and those I chat with from my son's class) assume I am well paid because they pay so much for their kids to attend and it wouldn't be professional of me to tell them otherwise. I think this issue is in many cou tries though. But my school isn't one of the better paying ones u fortunately (it is a for profit school).
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Berlin
Dec 20, 2023 17:47:59 GMT 2
via mobile
Post by lumi on Dec 20, 2023 17:47:59 GMT 2
Lastly, for now, Berlin has a reputation for a horrendous shortage of accommodation. If, you say, your husband's job is to the south, and I don't know how far south, but it may be that renting a small house is cheaper than an apartment. No idea what you want but it's a thought. We try and stay close enough to Mrs M's work that she can walk there in half an hour or so. Here now she can't, she has to get a bus or train, and there are constant delays and cancellations which cause us no end of difficulties. Car travel is possible but not only doesn't she have a parking space at work, the traffic/jams is just getting worse and worse - that's also why bikes, and especially electric bikes are becoming more and more of a necessity. The balance is what you want around you concerning where you stay (shops, infrastructure, countryside, parks etc), what you can afford, access to his work place, schools and so on. I would definitely prefer a small house to an apartment if prices are comparable. Not sure what the benefits of an apartment would be in Berlin compared to a house. Perhaps it is nice (to some extent!) having neighbours so close? In Singapore, the benefit is the facilities such as a pool, function room, gym, BBQ etc. But I don't think you get those in Germany? I would definitely prefer to be in nature than super close to shops. I am not into shopping and don't feel the need to go out to drink or party in the evenings. I'm more of a homebody these days though Mr Lumi likes getting out of the house every day. I think I would want to be fairly close to my sons school if we do live in Berlin because, as you say, traffic can be bad. And we have traffic issues in Singapore and my 8 minutes drive is much longer due to traffic and is an added stress, especially when it means I could be late for work too.
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Post by OnlyMark on Dec 20, 2023 21:48:37 GMT 2
"In Singapore, the benefit is the facilities such as a pool, function room, gym, BBQ etc. But I don't think you get those in Germany?" As a rule, no. I won't say never but it'd be quite rare and restricted to very expensive condominium complexes of which I don't actually know of any at all.
I can see you will have a problem trying to find an international or local school taught in English. No matter it being close to his work as it'd be a lottery win type of thing if it was. If so then you could look for places in that area. I'd expect you'd have to compromise one way or the other but it is an advantage if you don't mind living in a more rural location. Bear in mind the help schools can give with languages - as I said before, my kid's first school did. Also, at the age of sixteen both my daughters spent a year in a Spanish school without knowing the language apart from some baby talk words. So when we first brought them to Germany they had minimal Spanish as they were very young (3yrs and 5yrs) as their mother tongue. They learnt German and English (from me) at the same time. Then the girls learnt Spanish by immersion. Now my lad is fluent in German and English (he has forgotten all his birth Spanish) and the twin girls are fluent in both those and Spanish. In my mind it is important in life to have language skills and one of the most useful things they can learn.
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Berlin
Dec 20, 2023 23:45:50 GMT 2
Post by rikita on Dec 20, 2023 23:45:50 GMT 2
pools and gyms and other things are not common in houses here, at least none i could ever afford ... a house outside of town could be cheaper - but especially for school it might mean quite a journey. the outskirts that are close to town are not that cheap, either ... of course, also depends what you see as cheap. i suppose if you have to look for a job here, you'll have a local income - is your husband's income adapted to cost of living of where you are or does he earn the same if he moves elsewhere? i have only been to singapore once, for a day, almost 20 years ago, so no idea about the rent there compared to here ... but if you have a lot of money, it is a bit easier to find a place to live, of course ... i suppose the area where to look for places to live would depend what school your son could get into, then (and where exactly your husband's workplace is) ... ah, one thing, there is quite a shortage of teachers, here, but no idea if that extends to the bilingual schools ... normally, to work at a school, it is of course required to speak german, but again, maybe at private bilingual schools that might be different, so even if you don't get a discount at a school, maybe that'd be at least helpful at getting your son into a school you want, if you'd also work there (but as i said, i don't know if the teacher shortage at bilingual schools is the same as in regular schools) ...
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Berlin
Dec 20, 2023 23:54:08 GMT 2
Post by rikita on Dec 20, 2023 23:54:08 GMT 2
i'd agree with mark that kids can learn a language pretty quickly through immersion, maybe by starting to learn some basics before school starts ... if your son went to a german school, as an english speaker, and one who just moved to the country, i suppose he might not have to deal with the prejudices some kids from turkish or arabic speaking families might encounter if they start school without knowing german well - but that is just speculatin on my part, of course ...
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Berlin
Dec 21, 2023 0:04:11 GMT 2
Post by rikita on Dec 21, 2023 0:04:11 GMT 2
as for the lights, no idea what "normal" people do - i think it varies ... i think in my first apartment, there was a kitchen (not sure anymore if it was from the previous tenants and i paid something or just belonged to the place), but i installed the lights. as it was a small place, it weren't that many. in my current place, there was a sink and a stove, and i bought a refrigerator, table and some shelves at first - i was a student at the time - only installed a kitchen a few years later ... i think some of the lights were already installed, though the lamps were not very pretty ... but i've been living here since 2004, so i don't really remember ... but i just looked around a bit on a website for apartments, in some areas in southern berlin, and it seems that it is becoming more common for there to be a kitchen already ...
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Post by kuskiwi on Dec 21, 2023 2:44:58 GMT 2
Going back 65 years, I started at a new school midway through a year when all the group heiracy was settled. The same day a Dutch girl started and they paired us up. She had no English words and her parents had only basics.She had her frustration moments but by the end of the year she was fluent and spoke perfect 'kiwi'. We are still close friends.
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Berlin
Dec 21, 2023 11:44:46 GMT 2
Post by Baz Faz on Dec 21, 2023 11:44:46 GMT 2
I was born in Durban and had a Zulu nanny. I must have seen the nanny more than my mother because I spoke good Zulu. Alas, I have forgotten all but a few words.
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Berlin
Dec 21, 2023 20:22:45 GMT 2
Post by OnlyMark on Dec 21, 2023 20:22:45 GMT 2
Lumi, you say, "Looks like the international schools are South-West and that many are difficult to get into (no available space). And that most teach in German rather than English which narrows down our potential schools..." Not sure why you think they have no available spaces. Don't rely on anecdotes, ask the school directly. Most don't just teach in German but also English and some have no German at all according to this website. Don't know if this is one you've seen - www.international-schools-database.com/in/berlinI think most International schools will employ teachers who have qualifications but not solely German ones, so you may find a vacancy for you. Also consider for yourself one of the language schools if you could do any teaching in one of those. Native English speakers are usually reasonably well sought after.
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