Would you go to Saudi Arabia?

[nutraxfornerves]

I just got an email from a tour company I know & respect. They have a tour to Saudi in January. Saudi has only recently and cautiously opened up to tourism. The tour company is UK-based, so I have no idea if, as an American, I can even get a visa.

I would so love to go there. But there are tons of ethical issues. Do I want my tourism dollars to go to a country that doesn't exactly have a good human rights track record? That murdered a journalist? Would my tourist dollars go, in any small way, to people that need them? Would my going be a way to encouraging more tourism, which inevitably will crack some doors?

I can make informed health & safety decisions. But--what do you think are the pros & cons of ethics?

[shrjeff]

afaik there are two classes: citizens who enjoy the financial rewards of being saudian citizens and imported workers who do all the grunt stuff... so the chances of tourist income going to non-citizens is slim in my mind... oh, and slavery is still legal there and the 'guest workers' are kept in near slavery conditions...

[OnlyMark]

I'd accept that if I book with a tour company, only a very small amount would benefit the local community. There has to be a bit because of local guides, transport, accommodation and so on. But if that is a factor to me I'd go independently, but that isn't always possible anyway.
How much interest do I have in a country - that is the question for me.
For Saudi that factor is high and I would go if at all possible as soon as possible.
As for ethics - ok then, one option is don't go. And how will that change anything?

You might feel better for it, but I'm not sufficiently ethical for it to stop me going not only for the experience, but as a greater understanding of the people and country. I've been extremely lucky to have been to more countries than you can shake a stick at and lived intimately in several, and if I am effected by their ethics in the decision as to whether to go or not, I could easily find reasons not to go to most, European and otherwise.

Completely your choice as to what you do, I admit my selfishness in that as long as I was personally safe in a country, I have no real problems about going. If I have objections to their regime etc, then maybe I may have more understanding by going rather than relying on news that comes out of the country. If I want to actively try and change anything about the country, again, going is a first step.
I would have very little reason not to go other than some completely ineffectual feel good factor and as my mentality veers strongly to the practical side rather than the deep thinking side, then going is the 'way to go'.

[Voy]

What Mark said ... Given the current regime, any tours they let in are going to be "minded" to the Nth degree and therefore probably as safe as anywhere. For me personally - the two parts I most want to visit are probably not included ( Asir and Jawf ) but that's just me ( heh -who has actually been there, but not legally and not into the country - met with a client in the Jeddah airport where I "had to change planes" and made damn sure there was quite a wait between -- 1980) . Saudi is the last of the Arab countries that I haven
t been to - and it does fascinate me. I hope it works out for you and really really really want to hear your reactions!

[slowcoach]

NO

[nutraxfornerves]

The more I think about this, the more the answer is a sad "nope." I would so like to travel there. But it's pretty certain that my travel dollars wouldn't benefit anyone outside of the dreadful regime. I have traveled in other cou tries with repressive governments, but in ways that locals benefited. All see here is "see, foreigners are willing to travel here. Aren't we wonderful?"

I am at the point in my life where crossing off travel destinations is, well, rather permanent. I shall have to regret that this one is not going to happen.

[shrjeff]

when we went to cuba we stayed in a casa particular... a private apt. ate in local restaurants and found a tour guide who had a horse and carriage... all in the private sector... when we spoke with locals they would ask where we were staying and were uniformly pleased to hear... yes, we did go into the fancy, government operated hotels - for their toilets and wifi hot spots

[kerouac2]

Since I worked for the Saudis for 35 years, I obviously went there from time to time (not often). Before the Gulf War, things were quite relaxed in Jeddah for all foreigners. Things were never relaxed in Riyadh, though. After the Gulf war, things became very tightly controlled everywhere and westerners were often resented. But many Saudis absolutely live for their trips out of the country, which makes life IN the country more bearable when they go home. So those ones are very friendly and love the visits of foreigners.

I did actually make one tourist trip to Saudi Arabia (organized by my company). We visited the sights of Jeddah (of which there are not really any) but we also went to Ahba, which has Roman ruins and other things of interest, besides being mountainous and therefore less horribly hot.

I see that Saudi Arabia is now even advertising on CNN to attract tourists.

With my experience, I would still not recommend going there, not even for the obvious political reasons but just because it is too expensive for not much value, unless one is doing Red Sea diving or something like that. I'm quite sure that it is a moving experience for a lot of Muslims, but since one of my main jobs was to deal with pilgrims to Makkah, I can also say that most of the ones from France even if they were from North Africa (obviously corrupted by the French way of life) absolutely hated the experience and said that they would never set foot there again because all of the positive Muslim values were totally trampled by evil people and rampant corruption.

[auntieannie]

oh, thanks, K2! I realised I hadn't posted, and was about to try and find something to say on the matter. It wouldn't have been helpful, tough, due to my lack of knowledge of the area. If lumi has time to post on this, she might have an interesting perspective, since she lived in a neighbouring country for a while.

[kerouac2]

Most of the neighbouring countries will not offer useful comparisons, because even if the locals continue living in their traditional ways, they generally allow foreigners to frolic almost without any constraints. This is not the case for Saudi Arabia.

I have a few amusing photos from my very first trip, before the entire Middle East changed --
anyportinastorm.proboards.com/thread/5428/undeveloped-jeddah-saudi-arabia

[Voy]

Kerouacm-- 79 was when I was in Bahrain ! and your pics look amazingly similar - tho Bahrain didn't have tall buildings. I have lots of pics of those gorgeous "carved" balconies ! I'll try and find the album and see if I can take pics of the pics and somehow get them on here...
I LOVEDmy time in Bahrain - as it was pre-causeway.

[lumi]

K2 is right, my time in the UAE and Oman isn't really comparable as Saudi is far more strict, including with foreigners. I've never been to Saudi though used to be interested in visiting. Had the chance once to accompany my husband when he went on a business trip but as we weren't married at the time, decided it would be too risky. Plus I was a bit nervous with the religious policy who I had read would punish you if you had a hair showing or ankle etc, even if by accident.

Although still interested to an extent, I think I am a bit more righteous these days and not sure I would want to be part of their organised tour, listening only to people they wanted me to listen to and seeing only what they want me to see. Plus there is always the concern for personal safety as previous examples have shown that the country feel themselves above international law so if they take a disliking to you for any reason, I'd be concerned for my freedom and safety.

That said, I went to the DMZ and stepped into North Korea. I am glad I went and found the while experience eye opening.

[suzanneschuelke]

Hi all. Came here for the first time in a year and found something I wanted to reply to. First, hi everyone. I was to Jeddah in 2004. I was working but had a chance to do a small amount of local touring. I understand it is a bit more relaxed now but at the time as a woman alone (even an older woman - which back then mattered - I needed to be over 40 for my visa) I was terribly uncomfortable. Not with the abaya, that is just clothes, but with the constraints on movement. I wanted to go for a walk by the Red Sea because I'd never seen it before but it wouldn't have been appropriate (I was told absolutely not). I could go shopping with 3 other women in Old Town because shopping, in a group, was a female thing to do. I didn't mind covering my hair, but had been told that Westerners didn't have to, but the girls at the school where I was working said that I had better because I'm dark enough the religious police might think I was Lebanese or Turkish (aka Muslim) and attack me. Well it was the idea rather than covering that got to me. I was only there for a week but it was a very long week. Tourism is an interesting idea, I guess I probably would because there are so many bad governments. As far as the foreign underclass they do benefit (those you see) when you tip them (always, always in cash in they wouldn't see it).

[Voy]

I found my old photos from Bahrain, and tried to take pic of them, but the original quality isn't good and they just aren't worth sharing. Which is kind of too bad, because I'm sure there;s nothing left of those old houses and wind towers and balconies and carved doors.

[Netsuke]

In the words of my Mother ~
No, no, no, a thousand times No, I'd rather die than say yes!