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Post by Grecian on Jan 7, 2015 21:28:58 GMT 2
Horrible word and even more shocking crime.... In England everyone knows about the Ched Evan's Case - for you that don't it's quite simple and I will supply a couple of links for you to get up to speed. WikiHis own web siteSo, him and his mate got pi55ed and went back to an Hotel room with a 19 year old woman and his mate had sex with her and then Mr Evans did. Evans was charged with Rape as the Prosecution showed that the 19 year old was too drunk to give Consent - hence Rape. It is an interesting case and I would appreciate your thoughts on it. 'Rape' is a 'massive' word and it does come down to consent but should there be a difference between some bloke kidnapping a victim and raping her violently and a 3-some in an Hotel room? Who was to say she was too pi55ed? |
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 7, 2015 21:41:59 GMT 2
Wouldn't the difference be accounted for by the sentence imposed?
There is no clear definition of when someone is too drunk to consent I think. It is more down to a case by case evaluation by the courts. The problem is when an intoxicated person does consent and the act occurs but later decides they didn't consent because they were too drunk. The court then has to examine all the circumstances to either agree or disagree about the level of intoxication and other actions.
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 7, 2015 21:44:33 GMT 2
Looking further, the CPS say -
"Prosecutors and investigators should consider whether supporting evidence is available to demonstrate that the complainant was so intoxicated that he/she had lost their capacity to consent. For example, evidence from friends, taxi drivers and forensic physicians describing the complainant's intoxicated state may support the prosecution case. In addition, it may be possible to obtain expert evidence in respect of the effects of alcohol/drugs and the effects if they are taken together. Consideration should be given to obtaining an expert's back calculation or the opinion of an expert in human pharmacology in relation to the complainant's level of alcohol/ drugs at the time of the incident."
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Post by Grecian on Jan 7, 2015 21:49:39 GMT 2
That was quick!
You'd probably have made a good Witness for the Defence....
His mate was let off - so she was ok to have sex with him but too pi55ed to consent later??
Looks like Ched got 5 years and the next up is 8 years.
Oh, and what about the certain persons that shout 'Rape is Rape'?
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 7, 2015 23:23:13 GMT 2
Why did the mate get off?
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Post by Grecian on Jan 8, 2015 21:19:20 GMT 2
"Asked why he thought Evans was convicted while he was cleared, he said: “On the stand, Ched was very nervous. He didn’t come across well but being in that dock was quite an ordeal.” That's all I can find. Daily MirrorWhat's your personal opnion on the case, Mark?.. I'd also like someone else to have an opinion on it as it is the bi55est News in England at the moment - apart from the Islamic Feck Tards in Paris... |
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 8, 2015 22:52:10 GMT 2
According to Wikipedia she had drunk "The woman, a 19-year-old waitress, said she had drunk two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_EvansAlso though, after taking blood samples - "The samples did show traces of cocaine and cannabis, which she denied taking on the night of the incident." That alone is enough for me to say she was blotto and thus couldn't give consent. I'd probably say she did agree to sex with McDonald but didn't with Evans as he seemed to appear later, it wasn't something she expected. It's touch and go for me as to whether McDonald should have been found guilty even with the amount she had drunk and it wouldn't have bothered me if he had, but I'm more sure that the verdict for Evans was correct. What is missing for me is corroborative evidence of her drinking. It only seems to be her word that she drunk so much. I'd expect that in Court the friends she was out with would have said as well what she had consumed. She'd know after talking to lawyers that if she said she had drunk a lot then consent cannot be given, thus it is rape. But if there is no corroborating evidence of thew amount then the conviction relies on her word only - which is then a bit iffy. Also, was there any other evidence such as bruising, scratches, damage to the vagina/anus etc which would also show rape? There were drugs found in her samples - do the friends say she took some before and was a user? It doesn't matter if she was but if she showed past drug use then it is easier to believe she also took some. That would then add to the strength of her not being able to consent and a rape conviction be more reliable. So, I'd say she couldn't consent through drink/drugs, that I can't understand why McDonald wasn't convicted as well unless there is more to the story and it could be shown she consented to him, but then if she was in the same state as with Evans then she couldn't consent to either. That's what confuses me. The only other factor seems to be that Evans appeared for sloppy seconds and she felt she didn't consent to him. What was the communication and arrangement between the two males? Did McDonald have sex and then called Evans in afterwards? Did Evans know he was in there with her? Was he in the room all the time? etc etc. Lastly, there would be no way for me that I'd have done what McDonald did and took an obviously pissed girl to a hotel for sex. Two things I can't stand are pissed up women and cheeky kids. Also, there is absolutely no way I'd have sex with a girl/woman after a mate did. Horrible cringing thought. |
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Post by Grecian on Jan 9, 2015 20:19:18 GMT 2
How can she deny it when Coke and Weed are found in her Blood samples?? Did she suddenly forget taking them earlier??
If all she had was "two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca" she knows what she's letting herself in for..That's not fecking Pissed at all..
Maybe she's a Slapper and after a Pay Out...
Thanks for your verbose Bollocks above, Mark, but then I expected that of you what with you posting pictures of Nuffink during your Travels...
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 9, 2015 22:11:37 GMT 2
You're welcome.
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Post by Grecian on Jan 10, 2015 20:31:20 GMT 2
"Lastly, there would be no way for me that I'd have done what McDonald did and took an obviously pissed girl to a hotel for sex".
So, do you only have sex with sober women...on your own bed and on your terms?
I assume you are over 50, Mark? Maybe try and think back to when you were 18-25.
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 10, 2015 22:19:29 GMT 2
Not necessarily on my own bed, it can be anywhere. She can set the terms as well I as I can. She has to be sober though. Otherwise she'd never remember the unique experience. The drawback with remembering though is she'd be ruined for life in trying to repeat the orgasmic experience with others after that. It would be, and was, incomparable, so I've been told.
I think they meant incomparable in a good way though and not a bad way.
My father always used to say a gentleman should never take advantage of a drunken woman. Apart from those who follow football or play it. It's quite normal behaviour for them apparently.
Just like when you were 18-25?
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Post by Grecian on Jan 10, 2015 22:29:22 GMT 2
Parting the shite aside..
Are you really saying that you have never sha55ed a laydee who has had a couple of drinks??
"She has to be sober though"
....Or are you just taking the Pi55 so I should start all over again?
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 10, 2015 23:11:18 GMT 2
What your definition of 'pissed' is and mine probably differs. Especially when you say that "If all she had was "two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca" she knows what she's letting herself in for..That's not fecking Pissed at all.." and I say she was.
A woman having a couple of drinks though, and I mean just a couple of glasses of wine for example is not drunk in mine eyes nor yours, judging by what you said, and so doesn't fall into the category of being a 'pissed up woman'. If she is drunk then no, I wouldn't show her my etchings, even in my younger days, but a couple of glasses doesn't mean she is drunk.
I presume you would take advantage of an inebriated woman though? No?
I understand you would feck a frog if you could stop it jumping?
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Post by Grecian on Jan 10, 2015 23:56:00 GMT 2
"If all she had was "two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca" she knows what she's letting herself in for..That's not fecking Pissed at all"
.....and you really think that makes her soooooo pi55ed that she has passed out and can't Consent to Sex?
Well you have never had a Drink then, to be honest...
That is far less than most 19 year olds drink on a night out, you Old Git...
PLEASE Wake Up; Smell the Coffee and get with the Real World, Mark...and Fecking Soon so you can start to reply on present day matters - stop being a 'Dad'...
Excuse me but is "I understand you would feck a frog if you could stop it jumping?" supposed to be in the slightest bit funny?...Geesus..
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 11, 2015 8:33:01 GMT 2
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether the amount of alcohol she consumed, if it wasn't even more than that, would make her drunk. Yes, plenty more drink more than that and that's why in the UK press you always see photos of them flat out somewhere.
I any case, she couldn't legally consent to sex with that amount. At the time no doubt she gave the appearance of doing so, but that doesn't mean in the eyes of the law she did.
Maybe you are too blinkered to dissociate yourself from what you get up to on a Friday night, cruising round the pubs searching out the drunk girls 'cos that's the only way you'll get a shag, to see the difference between legal drunk and normal drunk?
Mind you, I suppose you get quite a few sympathy shags from them as well?
I still don't understand though why she could 'consent' to McDonald and not to Evans, unless she drunk more/took more drugs, between the two making her then pass what they thought was a threshold to consenting. The reports never seem to mention if what she drunk was all before she went to the room.
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Post by Grecian on Jan 11, 2015 21:08:45 GMT 2
But the basic premise is that you are Innocent until proven Guilty!
Honestly, if that is all she had drunk then she could have, almost, taken a driving Test and passed! There is no way anybody, apart from a complete Lightweight, would be anywhere near pi55ed having consumed that lot during an evening and a Night Out.
Maybe you are getting personal, now, with your second paragraph?
Speaking of 'Friday nights' etc, I can guarantee you 100% that every weakend in Exeter/Wherever there are Girls sha55ing Blokes who they have never met before who have had far more Drink than above and wake up and don't cry Rape. It's called a One Night Stand; Herer to educate you.
Your last paragraph will probably be first on the Agenda to Mr Evan's Appeal...
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 11, 2015 22:22:59 GMT 2
I don't understand the 'innocent until proven guilty' comment. Obviously I understand the premise of it but how it ties in with what I said, I don't understand. Especially when your first comment was that I'd make a good 'Witness for the Defence'. Or is that bit not relevant to what you mean?
She couldn't have taken a driving test with that amount of alcohol, she'd be about three times over the limit. As to whether she was 'pissed' I've addressed. But to remind you, the Court decided that she was. Not me, nor you. The Court did. I say she was, you say she wasn't. My idea of the amount of alcohol someone drinks and then be pissed is obviously way, way below what you think. I'd guess that most women on here would be well on the way to being so after drinking, "two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca". That is about five times the recommended daily amount for a woman.
Getting personal?
Just to remind you, due to your drink addled memory(?) the first personal comment was at post eight by you, where you said, "Thanks for your verbose Bollocks above, Mark, but then I expected that of you what with you posting pictures of Nuffink during your Travels..."
Then - "Well you have never had a Drink then, to be honest...
That is far less than most 19 year olds drink on a night out, you Old Git...
PLEASE Wake Up; Smell the Coffee and get with the Real World, Mark...and Fecking Soon so you can start to reply on present day matters - stop being a 'Dad'..."
I was just following on from you.
Certainly on a Friday night round where I used to live it'd be normal to find plenty of drunken sex where nobody cried rape. I agree. I'd always regret it but I never went to the police about it.
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Post by Grecian on Jan 12, 2015 22:10:17 GMT 2
That amount of alcohol is what some students - my Son included - would consume when 'Prinking' - The New Art of drinking before you go out to save your money at the Clubs later on..
My 'Personal Comments' as regards you was based on Facts as I have had to endure your Travelogues when all the pictures look the same; with the occasional interesting shot of Petra - the steps leading to it I really don't want to see 10 times. Thanks anyway.
I would hope, and assume, that you have never seen me feck a frog....Even if I could stop it jumping?
I don't quite get your last sentence there - you are a Male so, unless you were Bum Fecked while Pi55ed...why would you go to the Police and call Rape? ....Or was it your attempt at Humo(u)r and to show us all you were a 'Lad'?...
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 13, 2015 0:10:50 GMT 2
No matter how many times you try and say that drinking that amount is 'normal', you will still show strong signs of being drunk. Move on.
I value your opinion as regards my trip reports and only wish all of mine could be as enthralling and enlightening as all of yours.
Or both of yours.
Actually, the one of yours.
No, I correct myself, the paragraph you did with a photo many years ago.
Hang on a minute, no, you did post a photo of a fish once? Or was that someone else?
I'm sorry but all your photo reports and contributions are so numerous they are just a blur now.
Maybe you could at least post something to show us all how it should be done?
Yes, sorry, it was a poor attempt at humour.
Maybe for you I should include a litany of swear words, a number porno artistic photos, gratuitous capital letters and poorly aimed and at best incomprehensible insults. All in one line format and then a space as though you think the reader cannot take in two sentences at once? Do you think so little of us or are you basing it on your own limitations?
By the way, that book you got for Christmas, "The 100 best internet insults eva!LOL!" is way out of date. You need to think up some new ones.
You are allowed one more repost so as you can get the last word in but I think we've done this to death really. I have more interesting things to do like counting my post it notes.
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Post by quixote on Jan 13, 2015 2:05:01 GMT 2
I've been following this thread from the onset and regret not having commented much earlier on. (there has been a recent high profile case here in the US involving a University of Virginia case that has drawn much national attention to the same topic).
It seems now it has become more of a personal back and forth between you two and has lost all of what the OP originally was addressing.
So, if one or the both of you could put your personal feelings about one another aside from whatever period in history they originate, it could possibly evolve into a much needed discussion on this topic.
As long as you are both shooting arrows at each others egos and machismo or whatever, nothing useful will ever be accomplished and you might as well just kill the thread/topic all together.
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 13, 2015 9:35:52 GMT 2
All was going well until Grecian's post at number 8 and then 10. His style always seems to be one or two sentences and then an insult, he can't seem to stay on topic for long and views any long explanation as 'verbose bollocks' as he says, so as to stay in character. He probably feels insults are expected of him and to not do so would ruin his persona. Shame really, this topic could go far.
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Post by Grecian on Jan 13, 2015 21:17:15 GMT 2
This one of the few Forums where Numbers of the Posts aren't given - I am sorry if you had to start from the top and use your fingers, Mark!
You really were very verbose with your...eerr...verbose reply above, Mark and it really didn't add anything, in my opinion...OK! I apologise!
Quixote? You must know by now that the whole point of a Thread/OP is for people to actually reply to it and give their opinion on the subject matter?? Apart from Mark doing well and posting his various thoughts, facts and questions up here there's been Feck All - including yourself!
If you are just going to read Mark and my thoughts on this interesting subject so to form your own views on it then I really do think that both Mark and myself should get paid for the service.
I don't know about Mark but I do accept PayPal....
At the moment, Oldham's Chairman has put his Club up for sale; Ched Evens apologised; his daft Girlfiend from the start is sticking by his side! and his appeal is yet to be heard!
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Post by OnlyMark on Jan 13, 2015 21:45:57 GMT 2
I'm not set up for PayPal. Just give me your bank account and personal details and I'll withdraw the right amount.
In fact to save you the trouble I'll withdraw Grecian's share as well and forward it to him.
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Post by Grecian on Jan 14, 2015 21:36:41 GMT 2
Do you want 5% of £14m? just got an e-mail from Nigeria and we could split it halfers?
Just PM me your bank account details and lets get the ball rolling to a Life in the sun on the Costa Del Sol!
(As a slight aside, I really don't get how those Scams work as whenever you pay for something over the Internet you give your card number, expirey date and Security Code?..)
Latest News is? There's no news on Ched Evans and we are all waiting for the Fast Tracked Appeal...and Quixote depositing funds into me PayPal account...
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Post by quixote on Jan 14, 2015 22:41:32 GMT 2
What? Bit coins will not do? (haha!)
Don't hold your breath Geeky, I'm amid some personal more pressing issues at the moment that unfortunately are taking me away from concentrating on posting intelligently on issues such as these so, pardon please.
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Post by Grecian on Jan 15, 2015 20:43:32 GMT 2
Your Pardon is totally accepted as a very valid reason for being so slack!
I don't thrust these Bitcoins as far as I could smelt them!
So what can you actually buy with them?
If I walked into my local John Lewis and said I wanted that 62" HD ready, Flat Screen TV but I want to pay in Bitcoins, they would frog march me out of there!
I assume all I can buy is minutes on The Dark Web where all the Freaks hang out...
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